Въздушни Танкери

Всичко за военната военната авиация по света
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Непрочетено мнение от Blue Marble » съб мар 01, 2008 1:32 pm

Northrop Grumman са победили в конкурса за нови танкери- "KC-X". Ще доставят 179 самолета на обща стойност 35 млрд. $

По-подробно тук- Tanker contract award announced

Двигателите ще са GE CF6 на General Electric. GE сключили сделка с Northrop Grumman на стойност 5 млрд. $ по този повод:

GE Aviation Gets $5 Billion Pact Under Northrop Grumman Tanker Deal

В това време политици от Вашингтон(щата) и Канзас надигат вой до небесата:

Air tanker deal provokes US row
We are outraged that this decision taps European Airbus and its foreign workers to provide a tanker to our American military

... казва сиатълски политик.

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Re: Новини - Военна Авиация

Непрочетено мнение от =RvE=Tito » съб мар 01, 2008 1:59 pm

Интересно- Northrop Grumman предлагат танкер на базата на А330... Време им е на Boeing да ходят в пенсия, още ли не са го разбрали...
"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.
=RvE=

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Re: Новини - Военна Авиация

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » съб мар 01, 2008 7:47 pm

Та така, новият въздушен танкер на ВВС на САЩ ще е Made in EU. 8) :lol: 8)
Поздрави за Northrop Grumman и EADS.
Вечен срам за Boeing, които успяха да загубят спечелен конкурс. Дано се усетят за следващата част от конкурса (KC-Y) да предложат милитаризиран 787.

Изображение
KC-45
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Re: Новини - Военна Авиация

Непрочетено мнение от Blue Marble » съб мар 01, 2008 9:09 pm

Вечен срам за Boeing, които успяха да загубят спечелен конкурс. Дано се усетят за следващата част от конкурса (KC-Y) да предложат милитаризиран 787.
Ох, те цивилния 787 да го докарат, че и там са го закършили :(

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Re: Новини - Военна Авиация

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » ср мар 05, 2008 3:29 pm

Blue Marble написа:Ох, те цивилния 787 да го докарат, че и там са го закършили :(
Е, първи полет за 787 май - юни 2008 г. То дойде :)

Иначе докато сме още на вълна за танкерите ето нещо от материала на Flight International (цък) по темата.
“Northrop Grumman clearly provided the better value to the government when you take a look at the … five factors that were important to this decision,” said Sue Payton, assistant secretary of the air force for acquisition.

Payton listed the top three factors as mission capability, proposal risk and past performance, followed by cost/price and an integrated aerial refuelling assessment.

Northrop’s bid offered a “great advantage” to the air force on the cost/price factor, and scored “excellent” marks for past performance.
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Re: Новини - Военна Авиация

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » пет мар 07, 2008 9:28 pm

И още по темата за KC-X.
KC-X: Rating the Contenders
Кратък, но съдържателен анализ по темата. Оказва се, че Airbus бие Boeing в 4 от 5 основни изисквания към бъдещия танкер.
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Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Blue Marble » вт мар 11, 2008 8:02 pm

Тема за самолетите, без които господство във въздуха не става.

Ето какво откопах във връзка с конкурса за нов танкер за ВВС на САЩ:

Изображение

Мисля, че Бойнг скромно трябва да си затраят. :roll:

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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » вт мар 11, 2008 8:07 pm

Blue Marble написа:Мисля, че Бойнг скромно трябва да си затраят. :roll:
Както се казваше в една реклама = "Да, да!"
Boeing ще протестира официално срещу решението.

Boeing to File Protest on Lost Tanker Deal
By Dana Hedgpeth
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 11, 2008; Page D01

Boeing said it will file a formal protest today with a government oversight agency after it was passed over in favor of its rival commercial airline company, European Aeronautic Defence and Space, in a competition for one of the U.S. military's largest contracts.

The Air Force awarded the initial $40 billion contract to build 179 new refueling tankers two weeks ago to a team of Northrop Grumman, the third-biggest U.S. defense contractor, and EADS, the parent company of Airbus, Boeing's competitor in the commercial airline business. Because EADS is based in Paris and Munich, members of Congress and supporters of Boeing have voiced concerns about national security and complaints about job losses, especially in Kansas and Washington state, where Boeing has major facilities.

Air Force procurement officials debriefed the Boeing team Friday and the Northrop team yesterday. In a statement released yesterday, Boeing, which is based in Chicago, said a "rigorous analysis of the Air Force evaluation" led it to the conclusion "that a protest was necessary."

"Our team has taken a very close look at the tanker decision and found serious flaws in the process that we believe warrant appeal," said Jim McNerney, Boeing's president and chief executive.
....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02777.html
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Moss » ср мар 12, 2008 12:39 am

Boeing участват в конкурса с В-767, a Airbus с А-330. Toва е интересно, тъй като конкурент на А-330 е 777. Защо Boeing не са предложили KC-777, си остава една малка тяхна тайна. Според мен са искали:
1.Да не си натоварват и без това натоварения график на производство на 777
2.Да не се занимават с разни модернизации и преработки, а да предложат нещо дето го има.
3.Благодарение на горните две, да спечелят още по-много повече парички.

Ама американската военно империалистическа машина май е решила малко ( и временно) да ги понакаже :-)

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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » ср мар 12, 2008 8:37 am

По едно време Boeing имаха готовност да предложат танкерна версия на 777 за KC-X. Изискванията в конкурса си седяха обаче същите и от Boeing решиха, че и с 767 ще минат.
Принципно танкера 767 трябваше да е от същия клас като KC-135, но по-нов. А330 е доста по-голямо прасенце.
Оказва се обаче, че основно е оценявано колко може да носи самолета (гориво, хора, карго палети) и това е разказало играта на 767. Има един слух, че тази промяна в основните критерии за оценка е направена в последният момент.
А иначе на 777 му трябва около 400 метра повече полуса от изискванията на KC-X. Oсвен това американският самолет е ссредно с $40 - 60 млн. по-скъп от А330. Което като го мултиплицираме върху общата стойност на сделката, имаме едно поскъпване с почти $9 млрд.
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » вт мар 18, 2008 3:32 pm

Boeing твърди, че повишените цени на петролните продукти ще вкара ВВС на САЩ в излишни разходи. И по-точно $40 млрд. повече в сравнение с 767 за целият жизнен цикъл.

Boeing: Study Projects That As Oil Prices Climb, 767 Tanker Most Cost Efficient

ST. LOUIS, March 17, 2008 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] reports that the U.S. Air Force likely would pay up to $30 billion more in fuel bills over 40 years to operate a fleet of 179 Airbus A330-200 aerial refueling tankers, compared to a similar number of tankers based on the Boeing 767-200ER.

This assessment is based on a Conklin & de Decker Aviation Information study, funded by Boeing, that calculated the Air Force's cost with oil at $100 per barrel and $125 per barrel. Oil prices hit a record high last week above $110 a barrel, and many analysts expect prices to continue climbing.

....
Целият пресрелийз...

И още нещо интересно.
Коментар на Boeing по резултатите от основните оценъчни фактори в конкурса KC-X
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » съб мар 22, 2008 3:35 pm

Противниците на KC-30 са си създали блог в който публично критикуват решението на ВВС на САЩ.
Последната пикантерия, която са изкарали е, че европейският танкер няма да може да дозарежда конвертоплана V-22. Интересно.
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Moss » пон мар 24, 2008 10:49 am

Последната пикантерия, която са изкарали е, че европейският танкер няма да може да дозарежда конвертоплана V-22
Е, на нероден Петко всякакви кусури могат да се намерят. Само че, фирмите които стоят зад проекта KC-30, са с голям и успешен опит. За тоя залог дето става дума в конкурса, ще направят КС-30 така, че ще може да дозарежда каквото трябва.
Това за петролните цени обаче, може и да е вярно, при това да има наистина голямо значение. Всичко зависи от начина на използване на самолета.
В момента САЩ разполагат с КС-135 и малък брой КС-10. Ако толкова ги е интересувала по голяма вместимост, може ли са и преди да си купят много КС-10, но не са го направили. Така че, ако сега купят КС-30, това означава сериозна промяна в тактиката.

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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » вт мар 25, 2008 12:16 pm

Въоръжените сили на САЩ са разхвърляни по половината свят и напоследък се оказва, че логистиката им е разпъната до краен предел. И тъй като няма да отпуснат пари за допълнителни C-17 ВВС на САЩ са намерили спасението в тлъст танкер, който може да носи доста товари и пътници. Или поне това е една от теориите.
Друга една теория е, че софтуера с който са оценяни офертите за KC-X е бил разработен от Northrop Grumman...

А междувременно някой усилено обясняват, че нямат сестра:

Northrop says its tanker can refuel V-22 tilt-rotor
Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:14pm EDT
By Andrea Shalal-Esa


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Northrop Grumman Corp , rejecting a claim by losing bidder Boeing Co, said on Monday its aerial tanker based on the Airbus A330 could refuel the V-22 tilt-rotor aircraft flown by the Marine Corps.

Boeing on March 11 filed a protest against the Air Force's decision to award Northrop and its European partner, EADS, the parent of Airbus, a $35 billion program for new aerial refueling tankers that will be known as the KC-45.

In the protest, Boeing said the Northrop tanker had "significant shortcomings" including the inability to refuel aircraft like the V-22 Osprey. The Osprey takes off and lands like a helicopter, but flies like an airplane.

Northrop director of business development Marc Lindsley said that claim was false.

"The Northrop KC-45 can refuel the V-22," he told Reuters.

....
Цялата статия
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » пет мар 28, 2008 2:04 pm

AirTanker, консорциум собственост на EADS е подписал договор с британското министерство на отбраната за предосатвяне на въздушни танкери за срок от 27 години.

EADS-led AirTanker consortium signs 27 year air refuelling contract with the U.K. Ministry of Defence

* EADS is to become RAF's leading supplier of military transport aircraft
* AirTanker aircraft will be more than 50 per cent British by value
* The Airbus A330-200 has now won each of the last five military tanker contracts internationally demonstrating its superior capability, flexibility and economics
* EADS is undertaking further investment and growth of its UK defence business
* World’s largest ever Defence Private Financing Initiative (“PFI”), worth approx £13 billion (€16.7 billion) over 27 years


Изображение


AirTanker, the EADS-led consortium, has today signed a 27 year contract with the UK Ministry of Defence for the provision of air transport and air refuelling capability to the Royal Air Force. The AirTanker consortium has also completed its financing for the programme, raising approx £2.5 billion (€3.2 billion) for investment in the fleet, a new state-of-the-art operational base and associated infrastructure.

The Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) programme includes the provision of a fleet of 14 new tanker aircraft, based on the latest generation Airbus A330-200 to enter service from 2011, replacing the previous fleet of VC-10 and Tristar refuelling aircraft. The contract also includes provision for all necessary infrastructure, training, maintenance, flight management, fleet management and ground services to enable the RAF to fly air-to-air refuelling and transport missions worldwide. The A330 FSTA aircraft will be more than 50% British by value. Through this agreement, EADS will become the RAF’s leading supplier of transport aircraft, complementing its existing commitment to supply 25 A400M aircraft to the UK forces.

EADS CEO Louis Gallois commented: “We are proud to be providing the RAF with the very best air-to-air refuelling solution available internationally. The MoD’s requirements are known to be highly exacting, and we are grateful that its trust has been placed in EADS and our consortium partners, Cobham, Rolls-Royce, Thales and VT Group. For our part, this win further demonstrates the A330 as the platform of choice for the world’s refuelling fleets and comes on the back of our recent success in the US market. This award strengthens our ongoing commitment to grow our business in the UK in the long-term.”

The Military Transport Aircraft Division (MTAD) is responsible within the EADS Group for all military derivative programmes based on Airbus platforms. For the FSTA programme, MTAD will be responsible for the design and development of the A330 FSTA aircraft, and for delivering them on-time to AirTanker, fully certified and MoD qualified.

Carlos Suarez, Head of EADS Military Transport Aircraft Division, added: “With this comprehensive service contract, we now cover the full spectrum of customers’ requirements. The A330-200 based tanker solution has now won the last five consecutive military tanker competitions internationally. This demonstrates the A330’s superior capability, flexibility and economics.”

Robin Southwell, CEO of EADS UK, said: “This is a hugely important step forward for EADS in the UK and for our defence business, both in this country and internationally. The Air Tanker A330s promise to provide a crucial enhancement of tanking and transport capability for the UK armed forces. The nature of the PFI funding also means that the programme offers real value for money to the UK tax payer.”

EADS is a global leader in aerospace, defence and related services. In 2007, EADS generated revenues of € 39.1 billion and employed a workforce of about 116,000. The Group includes the aircraft manufacturer Airbus, the world's largest helicopter supplier Eurocopter and EADS Astrium, the European leader in space programmes from Ariane to Galileo. Its Defence & Security Division is a provider of comprehensive systems solutions and makes EADS the major partner in the Eurofighter consortium as well as a stakeholder in the missile systems provider MBDA. EADS also develops the A400M through its Military Transport Aircraft Division.


http://www.eads.net/1024/en/pressdb/pre ... anker.html
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » съб апр 05, 2008 4:39 am

Mрънкането от страна на Boeing продължава. В последният си пресрелийз твърдят, че KC-767 щял да бъде по-маневрен и с по-яка конструкция, което му гарантирало оцеляването в зоната на бойни действия.
Все си мисля, че денят в който американски танкер трябва да се спасява с маневриране от противников самолет ще е началото на края за ВВС на САЩ... :roll:
Последна промяна от Грозев на нед юни 15, 2008 12:08 pm, променено общо 1 път.
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от NEO » ср апр 09, 2008 3:20 pm

:) Като иде реч за танкери,ето го любимия ми! Освен това е и най-смъртоносен!
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f ... nhornt.jpg

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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » нед юни 15, 2008 12:13 pm

Northrop Grumman си признават, че KC-45 ще има по-високи оперативни разходи за целият жизнен цикъл в сравнение с предложението на Boeing KC-767.

Air Force miscalculates Boeing bid
Boeing says an error in calculation led the Air Force to award a $35 billion contract to Northrop Grumman and EADS.
June 12, 2008: 6:29 PM EDT


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Air Force has conceded it chose the more expensive option in awarding a $35 billion contract for refueling tankers to a team led by Northrop Grumman Corp. instead of Boeing Co., the companies said Thursday.

Northrop acknowledged Boeing's assertions that its proposal included cheaper life-cycle costs for the tankers. An Air Force spokeswoman had no immediate comment.

Boeing's action is the Chicago-based company's latest attempt to show that the Air Force's award to European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. - parent company of its rival Airbus - and Northrop was unfair. The disclosure comes days before the Government Accountability Office (GAO) is set to rule on Boeing's protest of the deal.

Although the Air Force is not bound by the GAO decision, any finding of error with the competition is certain to give ammunition to Boeing's supporters in Congress as they seek to block or overturn it.

"We have been saying for months now that errors had to be present in this contract award," said Rep. Todd Tiahrt, a Kansas Republican who represents a district where Boeing would do much of its tanker work. "This is strong evidence that the tanker contract should be re-competed."

The new information appears to undermine the Air Force's original assertion that the Northrop/EADS plane offers cost advantages, according to Boeing.

When announcing the award in February, the Air Force said the larger size of the Northrop/EADS plane helped tip the balance in its favor, since that tanker would be able to haul more fuel, cargo and troops.

Boeing contends the larger tanker will cost the Air Force more to operate since it will be less fuel-efficient, and will require the military to strengthen runways and expand hangars.

According to both Boeing and Northrop, the Air Force initially put the cost to operate the tanker over its lifespan at $108.01 billion for the Northrop plane, compared with more than $108.04 billion for the Boeing tanker. Boeing now claims the Air Force miscalculated those costs, although it would not release revised numbers.

In a statement, Northrop said minor errors resulted in a "slight adjustment" in the operating costs of the two planes, but maintained that its tanker still provides "the most capability at the best overall value."

The tanker contract is the first of three Air Force deals worth as much as $100 billion to replace its entire fleet of nearly 600 aerial refueling tankers over the next 30 years.

Shares of Chicago-based Boeing (BA, Fortune 500) rose 81 cents to $74.12 Thursday. Shares of Los Angeles-based Northrop Grumman (NOC, Fortune 500) rose 7 cents to $71.53. To top of page


http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/12/news/co ... 2008061218
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » чет юни 19, 2008 1:11 pm

Сметната палата на САЩ (GAO) е обявила вчера, че протеста на Boeing по отношение на танкерния конкурс KC-X е оправдан. Препоръчва се подновяване на разговорите между ВВС на САЩ и двете компании предлагащи танкери, което напрактика значи подновяване на конкурса...

Boeing back in tanker running
Airbus tanker could still win if contract is rebid News is greeted with cheers at the Everett plant
By JAMES WALLACE
P-I REPORTER


The news was almost as unexpected as the decision by the Air Force earlier this year to award a $35 billion tanker deal not to The Boeing Co. but to a team that included the parent of Airbus.

In a decision that many experts had predicted would be highly unusual, the Government Accountability Office sided Wednesday with Boeing in its protest of the tanker decision.

"Our review of the record led us to conclude that the Air Force made a number of significant errors that could have affected the outcome of what was a close competition between Boeing and Northrop Grumman," the GAO said. "We therefore sustain Boeing's protest."

The GAO, which is the investigative arm of Congress, recommended that the Air Force reopen talks with Boeing and the team of Northrop and European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co. and hold a new tanker selection process. The congressional agency used particularly strong language in saying that the Air Force made mistakes in seven critical areas, according to a military expert.

"I can't imagine that with this many errors identified by the GAO that the Air Force will be able to escape holding a new competition," said Loren Thompson, a noted military analyst with the Lexington Institute, a public policy research group in Arlington, Va.

The GAO announcement was greeted by cheers from Boeing workers on the 767 line in Everett, where any Boeing tankers for the Air Force would be built. The 767 jetliner is being replaced by the 787 Dreamliner in Boeing's commercial lineup, and without the tanker contract, the assembly line would be shut down in a few years when the last of those 767 passenger planes and freighters are built.

Mike McDougall, a 19-year Boeing veteran who builds wings for the 767, said the news brought grins to people's faces. When Boeing appeared to have lost the initial contract, "It was tough to get up," said McDougall, 43. "It's a little easier (now), but I don't want to get overexcited."

New bid likely

Even though Boeing is likely to get another crack at the contract to supply the Air Force with 179 tankers, the outcome of another competition is uncertain.

"Nobody should conclude from this that Boeing has now won the tanker competition," Thompson said. "There is a real likelihood that Northrop and EADS will come back again and prevail. Boeing has won this round, but the war goes on."

Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group, an industry consulting firm, echoed that view.

"This pretty much guarantees a recompete," he said. "But it does not guarantee a Boeing victory. It is still an uphill battle, but it does get Boeing back into the batter's box."

The Air Force has 60 days to tell the GAO what it intends to do. It said it is reviewing the GAO decision and would have a response as soon possible.

"The Air Force will do everything we can to rapidly move forward so America receives this urgently needed capability," Sue Payton, the Air Force's top weapons buyer, said in a statement. "The Air Force will select the best value tanker for our nation's defense, while being good stewards of the taxpayer dollar."

Aboulafia and Thompson said the Air Force is almost certain to rebid the tanker competition, given the tremendous pressure it will face from Boeing backers in Congress. Those supporters issued numerous "I-told-you-so" statements after the GAO announced that it had upheld the Boeing protest.

"I am not surprised that the GAO identified significant errors in the selection process," said U.S. Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash. "The Air Force bought a tanker that doesn't meet their needs and has been waging a PR campaign ever since."

Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., called the GAO's decision a "scathing indictment" of the Air Force's decision to award the contract to EADS and Northrop. The Air Force "should absolutely rebid the process," she said in an interview.

They and other lawmakers from Washington, Missouri and Kansas cheered the GAO's report and indicated that Congress would force the Air Force to begin again.

Rep. Todd Tiahrt and Sen. Pat Roberts, both Kansas Republicans, said they would immediately introduce nonbinding sense of Congress resolutions that would call for a rebidding. And Congress has more options on the table. Lawmakers can add language to the military spending and military authorization bills that force the Air Force to begin again.

"If we have to do it by amendment, we'll do it by amendment," Tiahrt said. "But I think the Air Force will do the right thing."

Boeing and Northrop issued brief statements.

"We welcome and support today's ruling by the GAO fully sustaining the grounds of our protest," said Mark McGraw, vice president of Boeing tanker programs.

"We appreciate the professionalism and diligence the GAO showed in its review of the KC-X acquisition process. We look forward to working with the Air Force on next steps in this critical procurement for our war fighters."

Randy Belote, vice president of corporate communications for Northrop, said in a statement: "We respect the GAO's work in analyzing the Air Force's tanker acquisition process. We continue to believe that Northrop Grumman offered the most modern and capable tanker for our men and women in uniform. We will review the GAO findings before commenting further."
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Re: Въздушни Танкери

Непрочетено мнение от Грозев » пет юли 11, 2008 1:41 am

Щe има нов ускорен конкурс по проекта KC-X :

Tanker Bidding To Be Reopened

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said yesterday that the Pentagon will hold a new, fast-tracked competition to replace the Air Force's aging fleet of aerial refueling tankers, a move that overturns the previous award of the contract to Northrop Grumman.

The decision follows criticism of the selection process by the Government Accountability Office and underscores the sharp divisions over the contract. The deal to replace the Air Force's entire fleet could be worth up to $100 billion over the next two decades.

Gates said he expects the Pentagon to choose a new winner by the end of the year.

On Feb. 29, the Air Force choose Northrop Grumman and its partner, European Aeronautic Defence and Space, parent of Airbus, to build 179 refueling tankers. In March, Boeing protested the decision, saying it was treated unfairly. The Government Accountability Office agreed, saying the Air Force made "significant errors" in how it conducted the procurement and its mistakes "could have affected the outcome of what was a close competition."

Gates said he had concluded that the contract couldn't be awarded "because of significant issues pointed out" by the GAO.
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